If you want PURE you really need to go, and know someone in Japan. Like in the the states, their are many "Shamos" but few are "pure" and even fewer are direct.
Many are crossed for one kind of show or the other. That does not mean there are not some nice ones to be found. It really depends on your end goals.
For the PURE sporting kind, you may want to look outside of the England. Sporting ones can be found in France, Italy, Ukraine and Belgium were the games are still active. Those that get them direct rarely let them go as they are Diamonds.
3 of my Diamonds :-)
2 black are Sitamadori Shamo, 1 blue one is Uwa Shamo. I am eternally grateful to my kind international friends.
Make sure wherever you get them that they are being used, otherwise your simply buying show birds that look the part. It's all about what you want them for. If you just want "Shamo" you can get them anywhere. If you want pit game Shamo, that will take some looking.
Look, apart from what was originally retracted..... Julia has some good PURE BRED birds. I know I have some and have shared clips with friends overseas and in Japan with good reviews. I have been selecting them for a few years, with help, but it's the same original (Kyushu) line she sent to my friend. So, as I have mentioned to some before, it's a matter of doing your homework. As she has multiple lines on her yard. Some better than others. Some of her birds were used successfully in years passed in the PIT crosses of France and Belgium, some less successful. Today, there are newer Shamo lines being used that are better than the old ones. Even from the same area. But let us, not forget that even in a set line there are brothers that are better than others. If one looks at the international scene the term PIT SHAMO is used to described Shamo crosses, be it with Asil, Thai, Reunion, etc. PURE SHAMO were bred for one purpose..... to be working birds! If they are not then they are just CHICKENS.
You've got some great ideas.The only problem with pure Shamo bred for one purpose is if they are not selected for that purpose over a few generations.All the things you are looking for may not be concentrated in the birds you decide to keep.In other words you may start out with pure Shamo and end up with just chickens.
What "idea/s" are you referring to? Please reread the post as I do not recall posting a stated "idea". But rather first hand experience and information.
So I apologize in advance, as I have never tried your stated theory thus I can not truly speak to it. I can only speak to, what I have done and to the results that I am happy with and confirmed by some of my foreign friends. Are they are good as their birds in Japan, or my new Japanese lines? Perhaps not, but they will get their chance. Though, I fear few are in the same league as the birds in Japan.
Sure you can't turn a Rhone Island Red into a game chicken but I don't think that is what you are speaking to. So to your point, perhaps a full blooded imported sporting Mainwali Asil, after a "few" generations of just being breed, with out foreign(blood) influence, might turn into a Standard Cornish and run. I GUESS it's possible, as I is the opposite.
Shamo are such a touchy subject with lots of folks, true dead game birds are hard to come by and when some one has them they rarely will let them off there yard and some one will always question a birds blood line and there ability, Paulo stated not all come great eaven when from great lines this is 2 true but the other side of the coin is through proper selection a great line can get better and better, so I guess what I'm saying is find great ones and make them better, good luck with your search I hope you find what your after and improve them
I did no intend to up set you in any way. Moving on from there I know the person has some very good lines which she maintains very well. From what I understand she have never used birds and dont intend to. Now what I have stated you must select every generation for the special stuff other wise you will end up with just chickens.
Yes, I am fortunate and grateful to know a handful of "folk" that I call friends that share in the hobby. Folks that are honest, dependable and trust worthy. It seems those kind of "folk" are difficult to come across, so I let them know that I value their time and friendship.
Look, I rather not assume what you mean by over "there". Europe is a vast place. Anyway, I can better speak to what I have over "here". So if you ever decide to visit the warm temperate climates, beautiful beaches and diversity of California I invite you to visit, with birds or without.
I was not offended or upset. I was more confused by your statements. No offense intended, but i don't think raising birds is as black & white as you make it sound to be.
So I still only partially agree with your last statement. I would agree whole heartily with your statement if it was a new line or new blend of lines. But, if a line has been close bred for 20-30 yrs, I would imagine one could take a season off, and still expect very consistent results from the bloodline. I hope that make sense to you.
Your last statment makes perfect sense to me, My way of thinking comes from the amount of sub standard birds that find their way into good strains and the cover up by some as to the reason this happens. If I make a cross then this info will go with the bird, but not everybody will do this because of money or other more devious reasons. I would breed a bird as soon as I could but later I would test the bird and if all things being equal he was not what I wanted then I would cull all his offspring.I would test every generation if possible and cull every thing if they were not with in reach of the best I could get. Ive seen some of the finest birds you could imagine and they were very poor on test not for the want of being game but the way they played droping their heads, allowing their foe too much time and not cashing in on opertunities thus making for a certain defeat the only reedeming factor was they were still there to the end.
no true cocker in the u.k would have j.k show shamo blood in there pen,as out 100 stags/cock from her only 1 might have the hart to stay the corse,and id bet my last pound nothing breed from him will be of any use as a true game cock.and others can say what they want about j.k shamo.and i say pit jap shamos so people will not get them mixed up with jap shamos for the show pen
Coal your first statement is really a true statement for true cockers. Adding Smith's last statement about JK's birds... Paulo are your shamo's really that good if they came from JK's since they were all picked for blue ribbon shows and not pit shows? But since I am not a true cockers I just want to make a statement. For all those folks that have aces or state that they have awesome lines...remember this a champ came from a junk line and a junk came from a champ line. I have had birds that could not play but offspring can play...and vice versa. Your bird can be a champ in your backyard but is it in a pit when you are playing the best. GL to everyone. The season have already started and should be in full swing for shows so we know who really have the aces. By the way Junior...my money will be on yours if you go to Cali.
as a show breeder and some one who wishs to keep the japanese shamo to its origina type and furm,then j.k as done wonders for the jap shamo in the u.k,on this one on one can say other wise,but as for her shamo being top class pit shamo,well this is very far from wrong,you have only to look at how many cockers there are from the u.k on this site,and are any of them using j.k shamo ore claming to use her shamos blood in there birds make up.yes i do know of a few who have made crosses with her shamo and got the odd stag/cock that as been a good pit bird,but nothing as ever been breed from them.i have nothing personl against j.k and the way she breeds and shows her shamo and other fowl.but i watched in the early days how her show blood was crossed in to good game working pit shamos and ruined old game lines for good.and yes i have owned them,my first cousin one whent to here in the late 1988 and give her over 3750 pounds for 2 stags and 2 pullets,she said these were 2 gen ore 3 gen from some of the best pit shamo in japan.these were 10+lbs big black red shamo,and they were no good as pit birds even at 2 years old they were not game,nor was any cross we made from them no matter how game the other side we breed them to.now the jap shamo from france is a different story as they have been imported for a reason,and that reason is for the pit
i have 2 lines of japanese pit shamo both of witch originally come from japan,but they have been breed and fought in this country for a long time now and have good records in naked heel,and under how rules.in a no time limit,no rest ore wash time,and in naked heel the trure breed pit game shamo can hold hes own with the best in hes size and weight class,but in tape boxing and under tape boxing rules the true breed jap shamo would be at a big loss, against a lot of south asian game cocks,speed would be there biggest trouble,as well as the style of the asian birds to,some of the lighter chu shamo might do well if matched right,but 8+lbs to 10.lbs jap shamo would not do well in 15-20 minute rounds with 5-15 minutes rest in between rounds with south asian birds of the same sie and weight.but this is just my thoughts on this